He could not have been any maiar or Ainur on second thoughts as he was in Ea before Melko, first of all the Ainur descended, according to what he told Frodo in the Old forest.

I always liked to believe that Bombadil was the physical embodiment of Arda, in effect mother(though father)earth.

Tom Bombadil...of course...

The quote that Agarwaen posted is 100% correct. Tom Bombadil is an enigma within tLotR. He is not of that story. He was created outside of tLotR (see The Adventures of Tom Bombadil), and placed within it, so he has no true place within the story like all of the other characters do.

Forgive me Olorin, Maiar, but that possiblility is closed completely. Bombadil could not have been any Ainur for he was there before the first of the Ainur (Melkor, the One dark lord) decended.

Also Dwarves were created before the Elves. And also Ents were created at exactly the same time as you have recently quoted elsewhere i believe.

Personally I think he was either an anomely created by Melkors discord or a 'Mother, though father, nature' figure. He is Arda in phisical form. Master of hill nut and water or whatever.

I would object to that request The Might. This is a seperate sight with its own loremasters. If you have seen info on the plaza, and i know there is a fair bit then good for you. But this site needs to develop that info as well as i am sure Olorin will agree.

that was not a request that was an advice
the research made by halfir is indeed very impressing and the answers he provides to your questions are 10 times better then any answer we could give you. As he says Tom Bombadil can represent in Tolkien's books at least 100 different things. He also brings very good quotes for every hypothesis and also analyses many other works from which Tolkien got his inspiration. TB is so complex that to fully understand what he is you need such a work. Now it depends if you want a simple answer or the detailed one. Because if you want the simple one it is TB can be a lot of things.
I just gave you an advice...

Firstly I would add that the Dwarves had life of there own before the Elves, Eru says this to stop Aule destroying them with the hammer. They are laid to rest understone until the coming of the firstborn becuase Eru could not suffer them coming first. I suggest you read the Quotes page in 'Navigation' top right.

About Halfir - I to have read his research, and no doubt extensive it is not fruitful. He can give many absurd and incorrect possible  origins lfor TB like 'Eru himself' or 'Tolkien' and many good ones. he cannot however come up with any more than i say now -

 'ENIGMA'

I am afraid that is his conclusion and I persoanally refuse it, though it quite likely is right as a quote furthuer up says.

I promise to play nice, and I am happy you said we should better use quotes. But using quotes is not so important ,as beeing nice and accepting the opinions of others.

yes, he might be a creature from the discord of the music, just as the Watche in the Water or other creatures without a clear past could. But he could just as well be many many other things, all with proof...so I think this one question that Tolkien never answered.

I think Glorfindel is EXACTLY right. Tom Bombadil is an enigma. My personal belief is that he is something woven into the creation of Arda by Eru, who repeatedly keeps secrets from the Ainur.

It is obvious that Tom is Eru's cousen.

I thought he was his mother........

I had wondered about some kind of connection to Aule as well ...
although I had never considered this particular take on it.

Hmmm ....

JW, I think you might be coming across a bit more strongly than the situation calls for ...

True - Eru, not Manwe - but there are quite a few details of lblt's theory that reveal that there is some familiarity with the legardinum present lol.

And just because Eru is all seeing and all knowing doesn't mean a person wouldn't attempt to hide a thing from him.  Also, just because Eru is all seeing and all knowing doesn't mean that all the other Valar are as well.  Just because it was Eru that conronted Aule, doesn't mean others like Manwe weren't in some way offended.  It certainly sounds like "offended" might be applicable to Yavanna's reaction to it all.

That being said - it is a mystery.  And wondering about mysteries is fun, in my opinion.  Just as long as one doesn't convinve onesself that they have unravelled the mystery to a degree of certainty that may be inappropriate and untested.

And intentionally leaving some things as mysteries need not be read as prohibition against wonderings and musings about what could be so.

I feel that the intuitive resemblance to something of Aule might be related to a connection to the Earth and a few points of resemblance between Bombadil and the Dwarves.  These may just be coincidences, of course.

And "some connection to Aule" is quite broad and generic ... still leaving room for plenty of mystery

JW, I think you have sound arguments and lots of good references and things, yes.

I just don't think that "unfamiliar with the legardinum" is warranted.
Perhaps "unclear about some details about the legardinum" or "only partially familiar with the legardinum" but I think wholly "unfamiliar" wouldn't quite fit.  That's all I was saying.

And I haven't proposed a formal theory myself.  I've just noted some similarities - and that is all.  Similarities by themselves don't make good proofs - although they may seem interesting to some and ignite imagination.

Bear, no offence taken, but I don't really understand. Is blue hard to read? I use it especially because it is different from the normal white of the posts, and because it makes a contrast. Is this contrast too strong, then? What color do you suggest?

Meimei, I now understand that we were each talking about different things! I wrote:

lblt, your theory sounds nice: for someone not familiar with the legendarium, it may even look plausible. However it is everything but!

I reread this phrase from what I think is your perspective and I see how rude it may sound. But let me rephrase: when I said this, I was not implying that lblt is not familiar with the legendarium - indeed I could not suggest it since I can hardly know lblt from his/ her one post. What I meant is that he created a theory and that someone who reads it, someone not familiar with 'The Silmarillion', may well believe to be plausible.

Now regarding my own standing in this matter: when I started reading Tolkien, I started with 'The Silmarillion'. Because of this, in my mind the vast backcloth of the legendarium was already present when reading 'The Hobbit' and then 'The Lord of the Rings'. I saw things in a rather black and white manner back then, trying to fit everything into the logical construction of this legendarium. As such, for me characters such as Ungoliant, Glaurung or Tom Bombadil were clearly Maiar, because they simply could not fit in any other category.

Now let me reproduce the words of a rather controversial individual in 'Tolkienology' - David Day:

"Tom Bombadil - Maia master of Old Forest. Tom Bombadil [...] was probably a Maia spirit that came to Middle-earth in the Ages of Starlight. [...] He was a short, stout Man, with blue eyes [...]" David Day, A Guide to Tolkien

The only real contradiction here is that Day first says Tom is a Maia, and then that he is a Man, but I take this to be merely a passing error, because Tom surely took the appearance of a Man (which does not mean he was one, but as I say this is almost irrelevant to someone at least moderately familiar with the legendarium, who can spot it for an error).

I was at the time satisfied with David Day's conclusion, because it only reinforced what I also believed to be true. I later learnt not to trust anything by Day because he makes up facts. I have not yet encountered in Day's work blatant making up of facts, but what I rather think he does is present speculations as facts. Indeed in the paragraph cited it is clear that Day started from the known facts and then made some original research which he passed as the fact - but again he has a working theory at least, which falls in the second of my categories: it is doubtful, or to say the least, it is not possible to prove or disprove.)

Now let me quote another author who compiled a guide to Tolkien's world: J E A Tyler:

"Tom Bombadil - The 'Master of wood, water and hill', eldest of all 'speaking-peoples' in Middle-earth [...] It is not recorded in the Shire what kind of creature Bombadil was, but it seems certain from all available evidence that he was a unique being, 'oldest and fatherless' as the Elves deemed him. [...]" J E A Tyler, The Complete Tolkien Companion

I can see why some people would prefer Day's entry about Bombadil to Tyler's: Day presents a solution to Bombadil's origin problem which Tyler does not - and as such is more appealing to those who want everything to fit neatly, as I myself did once.

However reading more of Tolkien I came to accept that not everything is consistent, and not everything can be explained. I therefore proposed the theory that Bombadil is one of Eru/ God's creations, which did not come into the Music and which Eru devised of His own accord. This theory cannot either be proven or disproven, but I find it appealing because it acknowledges Tolkien's religious beliefs - in the sense that there are misteries that we don't know the answer to, just as Christians believe that God's ways are mysterious and not always clearly laid for us to understand.


-- Edited by John Wain on Thursday 10th of February 2011 09:15:39 PM

-- Edited by John Wain on Thursday 10th of February 2011 09:18:17 PM

Can Tom be a metaphor of Arda? He is the earth and all its elements.
No divine Ainur addition; just a piece of Eru's creation.
Anybody?

Well Arwen, I was very excited about this topic so I wanted to take the time to research it properly. Sorry for the delay. But here we go!
We first see Tom when he saves Merry and Pip from the old man willow. When Frodo tells Tom what happened to his friend Tom says '"What'? shouted Tom Bombadil, leaping up in the air. 'Old Man Willow? Naught worse than that, eh? That can soon be mended. I know the tune for him. Old grey Willow-man! I'll freeze his marrow cold, if he don't behave himself. I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Old Man Willow!'"
The part that I find most interesting is how much of this is about singing. "I know the tune for him" and such. Remind anyone of the songs in the begining of the silmarillion from the Ainur?

And later in FotR chapter 'in the house of Tom Bombadil' Frodo bluntly asks Toms wife, Goldberry "'Fair lady!' Said Frodo again after a while. 'Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, wo is Tom Bombadil?'
'He is,' said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling.
Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seen him.' She said in answer to his look. 'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'"
That seems like quite a bit of mastery. Wood, water, and hill? What the meaning of these three things is I do not know.
Later in the chapter is this conversation;
"'Who are you, Master?' He (Frodo) asked.
'Eh, what?' Said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Dont you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Oustside'"
Now, there are a few very important details about this. Obviously we see that Tom is very very old. And ageless it seems. The last part "before the Dark Lord came from Outside." I take it the Dark Lord mentioned is Morgoth not Sauron who was also refered to as the Dark Lord I believe. And also when he said he came from "Outside" you'll have to notice that Outside is capitalized. As in a place that was being refered to as Outside and not just saying from outside of this place, if that makes sense. Also skipping ahead to TTT, the chapter is the white rider. The quote is Gandalf saying this of Treebeard;
"' Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth'" so we see that unless Gandalf is mistaken, unlikely, Tom Bombadil is not the oldest living thing in Middle-earth, that title belongs to Treebeard. And that's all I have right now, I'll post more if and when I find it :)

In the FotR the chapter the council of Elrond they discuss if Tom could help them in their task and this follows
" 'Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' Asked Erestor. 'It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.' 'No, I should not put it so.' Said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.' "
So clearly we see that A) Tom set his bounderies, no one else. And B) he WILL not step beyond them. Not that he can't simply he will not. Does that clear that matter up?