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Topic: dagor dagorath/ war of wrath

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dwarf guy
Dwarves - Rank 1
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Date: May 1, 2007
dagor dagorath/ war of wrath
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i didnt know where else to put this 

about 20 mins ago i was looking at some other forums and i saw DAGOR DAGORATH and THE WAR OF THE WRATH. this is the first time i hear about this... in what book is it mentioned in.
can anyone give me ALOT of innfo about these 2 things...or are they the same thing???

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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 1, 2007
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They are two seperate battles.

The War of Wrath was the Third and last War between the Valar and the Devil. Earendil the half-Elf sails to Valinor and plea's with the Valar to forgive the Noldor and to have sympathy on Men, who the Valar thought little of and to help them in their uttermost need. After Morgoth had conquered Beleriand with all but a few settlements of free peoples of the shores of the Sea, the Valar grant Earendil his prayer and set sail with there army to Middle-earth and eventually overturn the dominion of Morgoth. Thus the First Age ends and the Sinking of Beleriand is caused.
The most detailed account of the War of Wrath can be found in the last chapter of the Silmarillion called 'Of Earendil and the War of Wrath'.

The Dagor dagorath, also called the Last Battle and the Day of Doom, is similar to the Apocolips in the Bible.
After the Valar and the Elves at last grow weary of the world (far into the future of any written tales of Middle-earth) Melkor finds a way to break through the Door of Night and re-enters Arda.

Please read This Thread for more information on this scetchy work of Tolkien.

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The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 1, 2007
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Hmm...I wonder who closed the thread...
Anyway, I reopened it, since I would like to add something to this
It is noticeable that towards the end of his life Tolkien dealt with this matter again, as he took many elements from the Dagor Dagorath and transferred them to the battle that ended the War of Wrath
We can not be sure this way, what further intentions he might have had
Of course, it is clear, he didn't wish to move the whole Last Battle story at the end of the First Age, since that way there would be no Second, Third, Fourth and so on.
Still, this never was a closed topic.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 1, 2007
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MoS, let's stick to the facts a little, ok? It was the battle against Morgoth or Melkor if you wish. The Devil is a word of Christian religion and for us who are not of that faith, it has no meaning. Many people will understand it, but I feel uncomfortable calling Melkor Devil. Yes, he was evil, and yes he was originally part of the Ainur, and I know what you mean, but Tolkien has never called any of his creatures by that or any other religious name. Please forgive me if I offended you, but mixing religion with fantasy makes me feel a little apprehensive.

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The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 1, 2007
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I agree with Arwen here, such words aren't to be used here, no matter why
However, I disagree on one point...
Tolkien did link certain beings or entities in his work with Christian ones
The Ainur for example are called angelic spirits
For example in the Unfinished Tlaes he says that The Istari are "persons of the 'angelic' order", clearly a link to angels
And one can not help but notice many other such links between Tolkien's world and Christianity
But this is another topic and I agree with the point made that such analogies shouldn't be made anywhere else then in threads dealing particularly with this matter

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 1, 2007
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Yes, TM, I read about that. Maybe we could start a thread like Religious Symbolism in the Wrtings of Tolkien

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Bilbo Baggins
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: May 1, 2007
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ArwenLegolas - Mouth of sauron is well within his rights to call Morgoth 'The Devil':

"The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil." Letter 294

"It  afterwards came to pass that the foul servant of the devil, whom the people of the ?AElfwines  name (Zigur),  grew mightily  in middle-earth, and  he  learned  of  the  power  and  glory  of  the Westware (Dwellers in the West) .... desired a higher throne  than even the  descendant  of  Earendel possessed." HOME, Sauron defeated

And besdes this I saw a never before seen interview the other night on 'Newsnight' to do with the new realease of the 'Children of Hurin' of Tolkien and he said 'Of the Exiles war against the Devil'. I remember that line in particular.

I know most people think of Melkor as a very bad guy but he isn't. He is the Devil, the fallen offspring of the allfather and it really hit home when I heard Tolkien himself say it.

-- Edited by Bilbo Baggins at 22:17, 2007-05-01

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ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 1, 2007
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Dear Bilbo, my most humble apologies. If I had the "Letters" I would have known that, but not having them and not having access to cable TV I have not seen the report either. And whom do you mean by "he" in the sentence "and he said 'Of the Exiles war against the Devil'?

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: May 2, 2007
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I think he means Tolkien.

And to add to this point it seems logical that Morgoth is the Devil as the Balrogs are called 'Demons of Fire', sort of the 'lesser Devils of hell'.

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Olorin/Gandalf
Chief Maiar
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Date: May 2, 2007
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Truly sorry i closed this!*nods with a very "sorry face"* I closed it only because i thought that with MoS's post it was cleared...

*Hides in a dark corner*

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The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 2, 2007
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Hmm...I'm impressed, since I had no idea Melkor was called "Devil" anywhere
Interesting information, I'm happy this got cleared up

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 2, 2007
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Thats what I was trying to state in the old 'Morgoth vs Sauron' thread. Glad you got it cleared up Bilbo. You beat me to it!

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