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Galin

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In The Battle Of The Pelennor Fields the orcs of Mordor appear to fight on after the Sun shines (a great wind blew, and the rain went North). The hosts of Mordor, which I would say included orcs (orcs that are said, after Aragorn is revealed, to have hated the Sunlight), were actually heartened by the Black Sails. Éomer's words include singing in the Sun as he prepared to face Mordor, and then Aragorn and Company are revealed and a dread falls upon the enemy. These orcs do not like the Sun but appear quite ready to battle on when thinking that the ships contained enemies of the West. Orcs don't like the Sun. Perhaps even Saruman's Isengarders would prefer darkness if given the choice, but in any case the evidence appears to imply that the Isengarders are arguably better at enduring it than others orcs met in the tale, though even they are possibly matched by a few 'larger, bolder' Northerners. When running with Merry and Pippin, the Mordorians run 'hour after hour' under the Sun without complaint (granted the Winter Sun if I remember correctly, but still), and even when they drop back at one point (compared to the Isengarders), the text makes it clear that 'the writer of the tale' cannot know (or tell) the exact reason why, and the writer gives two options for the reader to entertain. I haven't looked at the Silmarillion texts (yet) concerning the matter, but in general I'm not sure the suggestion from certain descriptions in The Hobbit necessarily speaks for all orcs in the legendarium. So please help me out (those who care enough!): did Tolkien sustain the idea well enough in The Silmarillion? and elsewhere (Unfinished Tales). It is a rather nice enough idea I think, and Treebeard certainly seems to think it odd for orcs to easily endure the Sunlight... ... but in my opinion, so far at least, although this was a concern for JRRT, the matter doesn't seem so set in stone (troll-pun intented) as it might appear. __________________

Anorlas

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I'll have to hit the books soon but I seem to remember that even in the Lord of The Rings Sauron was sending out clouds of darkness to help the movement of the orcs. When they had Merry and Pippin they moved at night, grumbling against their Uruk overlords about the need to travel in broad daylight? __________________ I'll not bid the stars farewell

Bear

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It seems that the way orcs grew to tolerate the sun was through genetic manipulation.
Here is an interesting little scoop of information gleaned through the Encyclopedia of Arda (with much thanks)

Great Orcs ~ "Great Orcs- that kind is stronger and more fell than all others." ~ Eomer
A common name for the large soldier-orcs of Mordor and later also Isengard that troubled Gondor and Rohan in the late Third Age. The fearsome creatures it described when he spoke these words: were creatures whose name in their own Black Speech was Uruk-hai.

Half-Orcs ~ Creatures bred from Orcs and Men by the Wizard Saruman in his stronghold at Isengard. Like Sauron's Uruk-hai, they could withstand sunlight. The more Man-like of them, of perhaps a slightly different breed, were known as Goblin-men. Also known as Orc-men
A race of ferocious Man-like Orcs that fought in the armies of Isengard at the end of the Third Age. Orc-men, who were apparently Half-orcs bred from Orcs and Men, were so similar to true Men that it was difficult to tell them apart; indeed, when a force of these creatures attacked the Fords if Isen during the famous Battles there, the chronicler of those events was unsure whether the attackers were Men or Orc-men. The Orc-men in that battle, who were clad in mail and armed with axes, are the only ones we know of for sure, but their actions nonetheless had lasting effects. It was one of these that slew Théodred, leaving King Théoden of Rohan without an heir.

Mordor-Orcs ~ The Orcs that served the Red Eye. All of the Orcs of Middle-earth would follow Sauron at his will, but in Mordor itself were those that carried his livery and lived under his direct command. There were numerous different types of Orc in Mordor's service, from the lesser Snaga to the great Uruk-hai. The Uruk-hai actually originated in Mordor. Though most Mordor-orcs seem to have been soldiers, others were specialised for different tasks, such as hunting.

Orcs ~ Warring servants of the Dark Lords. Little is known for certain of the beginnings of the Orcs, the footsoldiers of the Enemy. It is said that they were in origin corrupted Elves captured by Melkor before the beginning of the First Age. In appearance, Orcs were squat, swarthy creatures. Most of them preferred the darkness, being blinded by the light of the Sun, but the kinds bred later in the Third Age such as the Uruk-hai could endure the daylight.

Orcs of Mordor ~ Servants of the Red Eye. The Orcs had been the footsoldiers of Morgoth the first Dark Lord, and when he was banished from the World, they remained under the control of his lieutenant Sauron. After Sauron established himself in the Black Land of Mordor, his Orcs continued to battle with Elves and Men over many centuries..
The Orcs of Mordor were not simply gathered from the remnants of Morgoth's armies, but were also bred anew by Sauron. There were many types in the service of the Red Eye, but the largest and fiercest were the Uruk-hai, a form first seen about five hundred years before the end of the Third Age. It seems that Sauron could breed armies of Orcs with enormous speed when they were needed. According to Aragorn, for instance, it had taken just a few years for the Orcs to multiply in Mordor to the vast hordes seen in the War of the Ring.

Orcs of the Misty Mountains ~ Creatures of cavern and pass.
In the War of Wrath that brought the First Age to an end, most of Morgoth's Orcs were destroyed, but some of his vast army escaped eastward across the Blue Mountains. Some of those crossed Eriador and found their way to the Misty Mountains, where they settled in caverns beneath the peaks. At first leaderless and wild, Morgoth's lieutenant Sauron soon arose again in Middle-earth and took at least some control over them. By the end of the Second Age, Orcs of Mordor had come among them, and under their command the Orcs of the Mountains ambushed and killed Isildur after the War of the Last Alliance.
With Sauron's defeat in that war, the Orcs of the Misty Mountains again fell back to their wild ways. At least some bands had their own leaders, especially large Orcs like the Great Goblin, who were perhaps descendants of the Mordor-orcs sent to command them in the Second Age. After the fall of Khazad-dûm in III 1981, Orcs of the Misty Mountains entered and occupied its ruins. Long afterwards, Moria became the seat of an Orc-chieftain named Azog. It was Azog who slew King Thrór of the Longbeards, and so started the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, in which Azog himself was slain.
After that War, the Orcs lurked among the Misty Mountains, nursing a hatred of the Dwarves,and in III 2941, a group of these Orcs captured a band of travelling Dwarves in the High Pass. Those Dwarves - led by Thrór's grandson Thorin - escaped, killing the Great Goblin in the process. So began a chain of events that led to Azog's son, Bolg, uniting the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and leading them east to fight the Battle of Five Armies. That battle ended in defeat for the Orcs, and left the Misty Mountains free of them for many years afterwards.
By the time of the War of the Ring, the Orcs of the Mountains had started to recover their numbers, at least sufficiently to reclaim Moria. As the War came on, they fell under the command of Sauron and Saruman. There were Orcs from the Misty Mountains, for example, in the party that captured Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen. Of their fate after the War, nothing is known, but legend says that the Longbeards eventually succeeded in recapturing Moria, so the power of the Orcs in the Misty Mountains must have waned considerably after the Third Age if they survived at all.

Orcs of the Mountains ~ The large goblins of the Misty Mountains.
A race of Orcs that inhabited the Misty Mountains. They were of a recognisably different kind to other Orcs, being somewhat larger than most, and well adapted for life in their tunnels beneath the Mountains. Their most important contribution to history was at the beginning of the Third Age, when they descended from their Mountains to attack Isildur as he rode home from the War of the Last Alliance. Thus, the Orcs of the Mountains were directly responsible for the loss of the Ruling Ring that Isildur carried.
Long centuries after that fateful raid, their chieftain Azog slew the Dwarf-king Thrór, and so triggered the long War of the Dwarves and Orcs. After that War, most of the Orcs of the Mountains were slain or scattered, but some survived under the leadership of Azog's son Bolg. They still had a part to play in history: not least because it was the capture of Bilbo Baggins and his companions by a band of these Orcs that led to the finding of the Ring - the same Ring their ancestors had caused to be lost nearly 3,000 years before.

Orcs of the Red Eye ~ The servants of Sauron.
Also called simply Orcs of the Eye, a force of Orcs in the direct service of Barad-dûr in Mordor, whose gear carried the Red Eye, symbol of Sauron the Dark Lord. Orcs of the Red Eye are mentioned in histories even before the War of the Last Alliance, and they made up much of the force that attacked that Captains of the West from the Morannon in the closing moments of the War of the Ring.
The organisation of the Orcs other than those of the Red Eye is not clearly described, but we know of at least one other main group at the end of the Third Age: the Orcs of the White Hand that served Saruman. The Orcs of Minas Morgul, who fought in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, also appear to have formed a separate army. They are not specially named, but their gear carried the livery of Morgul: a death's-head moon. Further from Mordor, other bands of Orcs lived under their own leaders, though acknowledging the ultimate authority of Sauron: the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were the most well known of these.

Goblins ~ The race of Orcs.
A name almost synonymous with Orcs. There is some debate about how closely the the two terms are related to one another, and indeed it could be argued that they both effectively relate to the same thing.
The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds.)' The fact that the larger kinds are given their own special word might suggest that goblins tend to be smaller Orcs, but the evidence on this point is inconclusive.
The word 'goblin' is also used occasionally and indiscriminately in The Lord of the Rings; it never occurs in the The Silmarillion.
(With much thanks to the Encyclopedia of Arda, http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/search.asp?search=Orcs)

An interesting series of speculations and abstractions.

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Galin

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Anorlas wrote: I'll have to hit the books soon but I seem to remember that even in the Lord of The Rings Sauron was sending out clouds of darkness to help the movement of the orcs.

Right but doesn't the chronology of the Pelennor imply that when the Sun is revealed the Orcs of Mordor were still very ready to fight (until all realized that it was Aragorn under the black sails)? or at least there seems no reason not to think so from the narrative, I think.

When they had Merry and Pippin they moved at night, grumbling against their Uruk overlords about the need to travel in broad daylight?

There are basically three groups here, but ultimately all ran under the Sun if I recall correctly. When the Northerners complain about running in the Sun, they are derided (among other things) as 'half-trained'... which I think notable, for an uruk is a 'great soldier orc' and arguably well trained.

I think training is key. But even that said, at one point the Northerners splinter, leaving a few of the larger bolder Northerners with the Isengarders -- notably, the splinter this way before the Isengarders run under the Sun -- thus even some of the Northerners appear to keep right up with the Isengarders (along with the Mordorians too).

Bear has entered a lot of information from the Encyclopedia of Arda. I don't agree with all of it (it's not the first time!) but for now I'll just note:

Goblin: A name almost synonymous with Orcs. There is some debate about how closely the the two terms are related to one another, and indeed it could be argued that they both effectively relate to the same thing. Encyclopedia of Arda

Hmm. I have challenged this debate for years now

And in various forums on the web, because I say the interweb is making a simple enough matter complicated: Tolkien translated Westron Orc with English 'goblin', like he translated Elvish Quendi with English 'Elves'.

The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds.)' The fact that the larger kinds are given their own special word might suggest that goblins tend to be smaller Orcs, but the evidence on this point is inconclusive. Encyclopedia of Arda

If we post this quote in full however (this is not the full quote), along with Tolkien's note to translators then to my mind the meaning becomes clear: Orc has simply been translated with a modern English word.

And consider that if one translates German hund with English 'dog' for example, and even adds '(or greatdog for the larger kinds)' let's say -- the addition of that statement in no way need mean that 'dog' now only refers to smaller kinds. 'Dog' still refers to all kinds, as does 'goblin'.

I don't know why the Encyclopedia should suggest that the evidence on this point (that goblins might tend to be smaller) is inconclusive, as 'goblin' is used to refer to large Orcs in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

Anyway, back to topic. What of, say, some of the battles in the Silmarillion...

... after the Sun was made of course

though the mythology in which the Sun arose before the Elves awoke might make this an interesting matter!

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mouth of sauron

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As far as I was aware, unlike trolls, Orcs were not completely crippled by sunlight they merely didn't function as well as they could under it. Sauron sent forth clouds of darkness for cover as sunlight was a problem that could be done without, but surely would not have disabled the Orcs from marching completely.

As for The Silmarillion I would have thought the idea that Orcs dislike the Sun and are hindered by it was in tune with the fact that in their beginning they operated under darkness for the Sun hadn't been made yet. They had control over most of Middle-earth and were surrounding Doriath and then along comes a huge host of elves out of the West followed by a blinding (to them it must have seen) light. In Tolkien's world things like that often leave a mark that never leaves.

On the subject of trolls - did the notion of them turning into stone in sunlight make it anywhere outside of the Hobbit?

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Galin

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We meet some stone trolls in The Lord of the Rings too wink

I just checked the fourth day of the Fifth Battle (Tears Unnumbered) and the narrative seems to present Orcs fighting under the Sun (noting also the troll-guard of Gothmog in any case).

A bit oddly perhaps, in a letter (can't recall the number at the moment) Tolkien referred to the Stone-trolls as 'counterfeits' (in effort to explain them turning to stone) which I think implies they were made by Morgoth and not corruptions of something else! In other words, kind of like the old (abandoned) idea of the origin of orcs, where Morgoth made them instead of corrupting some other race.

Granted Tolkien seems unsure of this even at the time he wrote the letter (actually I think he begins by saying he is not sure about trolls), and he notes that when you give something the power of speech it at least implies a true soul... and then goes on to say that one of his three trolls does not truly show pity (in answer to someone else who wondered about this). Later (Myths Transformed) JRRT would muse that talking is not necessarily a sign of a spirit... but here the context was the possibility (thinking with the pen) that orcs were really beasts!

JRRT was maybe sort of 'caught' by The Hobbit here again, but it is, after all, author-published 'canon' so JRRT can hardly deny certain trolls turning to stone, and he did not deny these of course, when met again in The Lord of the Rings.

Though there, already stone obviously smile

-- Edited by Galin on Saturday 30th of October 2010 04:01:02 AM

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Bilbo Baggins

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Weren't the trolls supposedly corruptions of Ents devised by Morgoth? That being said I find it hard to imagine how Morgoth ould have achieved that, we know how he did it with the Elves/Men in order to create Orcs but somehow I cannot imagine the same thing for Ents.
Is the idea of trolls being wholly created by Morgoth newer than the corruption theory? Either way it doesn't seem to explain the sunlight flaw.

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Galin

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Trolls were said (by Treebeard) to be made in mockery of Ents, just as he said Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, but this does not necessarily mean 'made from' Ents or Elves. Christopher Tolkien notes that in pre-Lord of the Rings texts, orcs were said to be made in mockery of Elves but not yet made from Elves -- that is, Melkor still made orcs in mockery of Elves, but without using Elves as 'stock' or 'living material' to make them.

The Wise of Eressea thinking that Orcs were made from Elves was later reconsidered in any case, arguably because Tolkien felt he had left the matter open and 'unpublished' as yet, as Treebeard's (already published) words only necessarily spoke to mockery.

__________

Concerning the dating and trolls specifically:

Tolkien mused about the Stone-trolls, not all trolls, possibly being 'counterfeits' (though again, I think Tolkien seems a bit unsure even in this letter) in 1954. The two statements from Myths Transformed appear to be later (later 1950s), and seem to concern trolls in general: 1) JRRT notes that it's implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were tinkered with by Melkor, and 2) that trolls were evidently corruptions of 'primitive human types'.

At the moment I can't recall any other references to possible troll origins (other than the vague references to the Olog-hai).

-- Edited by Galin on Sunday 31st of October 2010 12:29:32 PM

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Glorfindel

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Can you recall the origins of the Olog-hai Galin? As far as I was aware they were bred by Sauron in the mid-late Third Age as a new 'improved' version. Are there any specifics? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

Galin

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As far as I know, the basic tale of the Olog-hai includes that they appeared at the end of the Third Age, and '... That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. (...) Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.'
A few specifics anyway (edited from Appendix F)

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mouth of sauron

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Hard to imagine how he could have gone about 'breeding them'. What possible 'stock' could he have used? I have heard elsewhere about the idea of breeding men and trolls, though I can't remember if that was related to the Olog-hai. What about the Entwives? Could be a candidate. __________________ My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....

Jaidoprism7

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It is said that the Olog-Hai were more intelligent than trolls. I consider intelligence to be a capacity to communicate. The Olog-hai spoke seldom but only in the Black speech of Mordor. Your common Trolls did not speak. Then what were Bert, William, and Tom in the Roast Mutton chapter in The Hobbit? Remember: They wore clothes, they were proficient in fire kindling, and understood the language that Bilbo used. I do understand that this was Tolkein's first work in the matter of all things Lord of the Rings related and a children's book at that. So I calculated the whimsy of telling a gripping tale the babies might enjoy, but was this a mistake? Or do you suppose they were of a different class of Troll, for 'Obviously trolls.' they were, as he went on to say in the book.

(Highlighted quote from The Hobbit or There and Back Again, illustrated by J.R.R. Tolkien Chapter II Roast Mutton. Pg. 43)

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Galin

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Hmm, well trolls other than the Olog-hai spoke: 'In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days (...) Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.' Appendix F

So the trolls from The Hobbit are not problematic in general at least, in that they spoke a form of Westron.

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Jaidoprism7

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Thanks for clearing that up Galin __________________

Huan the great hound

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I was always under the impreshion that the olog-hia were most definatly a cross breed of trolls and men. I think MoS may be on to something with the entwives tho. I never learned what happend to them, but it would be sad if they were what morgoth bred into the original trolls in the first age

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Glorfindel

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Huan the great hound wrote:
I was always under the impreshion that the olog-hia were most definatly a cross breed of trolls and men. I think MoS may be on to something with the entwives tho. I never learned what happend to them, but it would be sad if they were what morgoth bred into the original trolls in the first age

I don't think they could have been used by Morgoth to create the trolls. As far as I recall the departure of the Entwives from the Ents happened later than the First Age. Does anyone know when roughly?
They could have been used by Sauron to perfect trolls into the Olog-hai though. However I think the idea of breeding men with trolls has some weight to it. They were mistaken by some for giant orcs so perhaps they were more akin to men than common trolls.

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Huan the great hound

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That makes sense Glorfinel, I don't know when the entwives disappeared to be honest. But I remember reading once that the olog-hia were comenly mistaken for large orcs/men.. wernt the men of far harad supposed to have been of great stature? __________________ But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;

ArwenLegolas

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And if these were Uruk-hai, they most definitely would most definitely have problems with the Sun since the ones in the Trollshaws were turned into stone. Though even if mated with humans, they should still be very light sensitive. Remember that guy in the Prancing Pony? He squinted a lot, and I believe he was rumored to be a mix of 2 different races.

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Glorfindel

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He was some kind of half-orc I think. Half man, half orc, maybe another 'creation' of Saruman? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

Galin

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'And if these were Uruk-hai, they most definitely would most definitely have problems with the Sun since the ones in the Trollshaws were turned into stone.'

I think you mean the Olog-hai here, a type of troll, as the Uruk-hai were Orcs who bragged they didn't mind the Sun. But in any case the Olog-hai could endure the Sun as well: 'Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.'

And the Half-orcs were certainly created by Saruman, breeding Men with Orcs.

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mouth of sauron

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Was not the meddling of Saruman with men and orcs considered to be the worst sin he commited?

"Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his [Isildur] bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst." Unfinished Tales

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Topic: Orcs under the Sun