A thought recently occured to me... Is the fortress of Carn Dum actually the ruins of Utumno??? Sounds stupid I know but Angband and Thangorodrim lied many hundreds of miles West of Udun and they were buried in the sea. The Ruins of Utumno however were not buried and they lay in the Iron mountains which broke up into smaller ranges like the Grey and 'Iron hills'.
The thought actually occured to me playing The Battle for Middle-earth 2, the Rise of the Witchking. In the campaign it said that Angmar saw the potential to build Carn dum becuase of the great evil that lay there.
Of course I took no notice of it in terms of lore but it did make me wonder...
However according to Karen wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Tolkiens Middle-earth, it appears that the Ruins of Utumno were right where the bay of Forechel is. But that is not many leagues away from Carn dum...
there you are wrong Utumno did not lie in the Iron Mountains... all we know is that it lied somewhere in "the far north of Arda". and far north would mean much further, somewhere in Third Age-day Forodwaith. however since the land had changed much between the Time of the Lamps and the Years of the Sun, there is no way to exactly say where it was located
Carn Dûm is not north enough (and too far east) to be the ruins of Utumno. Consider that we know the island of Himling on the map of LotR to be the remains of the mountain of Himring in the map of Beleriand; the little stub of the Blue Mountains extending westward on the LotR map is the same as the part around Mount Rerir on the Silmarillion map. Utumno was distantly north of Anfauglith, so it could not be simply east (or ESE) of Lothlann.
yes I do own it, but Mrs. Fonstad isn't correct in all her drawings, the fact that many of them were wrong created the need for a revised edition, and even this one doesn't have to be 100% correct. as far as we know from Tolkien's works Carn Dum could not have been on the same place as Utumno
Unfortunately after having another look in my atlas (which is the best map referance available for Tolkien) I can see the Carn Dum would not be able to be Utumno.
However this is becuase Utumno was about 400 miles WEST (not east) of where the Misty mountains split into the Iron mountains, whereas Carn Dum is only about 200. Utumno was about 50 miles also north of Carn Dum.
This would place Utumno right in the Bay of Forechelin the Third Age. This is probably why Tolkien made the bay of Forechel, to completely disguise the ruins of Utumno.
As you can see however they are not too far apart and Utumno's evil would have spread far beyond its fortress confines.
To make this clearer perhaps you could gt a map on this thread TM and edit it to show where the two places are. For some reason I can edit saved pictures...
MoS, this going a little bit too far. If the evil was so great there, then why did the Man of Forochel live there? They were good men as seen in the books, they helped Arvedui how they could, they clearly didn't stay there because they enjoyed the evil gamma-rays coming out of the water or the occasional dead spirits coming out of the water.
I looked on the map made in the book, and all said there is that Melkor used the mountains as a fence for his fortress, so clearly Utumno was somewhere further north from the Iron Mountains. Where exactly is not known, so an exact place such as the Bay of Forochel can't be given.
And I would not be so quick to believe something stated in a PC game.
Yes according to The atlas of Middle-earth you are correct Mos, Utumno does lie within the bay of Forechel or a little westward from there under the waves.
As to what you mean by Men not living there becuase of Gamma rays TM I don't know. Just becuase the Iron mountains were used as a fence to Utumno, that doesn't mean to say it had to be much further north than them. Utumno was based IN the actual mountains themselves, with just the outer faces of the mountains fencing it. If this were not the case then how could the Valar assail Utumno - do you expect them to have been climbing sheer mountains to get to it?
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anyway, no matter how far north from the mountains Utumno was, the point is it is not known where exactly it was, how far west or how far east it could have just as well been much further east, it would have still fitted the information from the Sil. We don't know where it was, how can you tell me it wa in the Bay of Forochel if we don't have any information of how far east or west it was?
Becuase Karen Wynn Fonstad does not place locations on maps with no evidence to support it. She would not have put Utumno where it was if there is only evidence stating that it 'was in the far north'. Perhaps she got her information elsewhere from The Silmarillion.
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I have read the text written underneath the map, and there is no other mention of where Utumno was, except the one I already mentioned.
I did indeed see one of the maps were she drew the Ruins of Utumno close to the area where Carn Dum was build, there is however no indication given in the book as to why she chose that place.
The Might wrote: MoS, this going a little bit too far. If the evil was so great there, then why did the Man of Forochel live there? They were good men as seen in the books, they helped Arvedui how they could, they clearly didn't stay there because they enjoyed the evil gamma-rays coming out of the water or the occasional dead spirits coming out of the water.
the evil of that place was from so long ago that i really don't think thayt evil would remain there after all those years.
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