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Topic: The Ainur and Death

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Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Jan 11, 2007
The Ainur and Death
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I recently read Unfinished Tales again and noticed this:


"There he was bound by the power of Morgoth; and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again and set his power upon him, so that he could not move from that place, nor die, until Morgoth should release him."


 


It seems an odd power for Melkor to have, to prevent death. I wonder why, if he could do this did he not give the First coorrupted Men uneding life when the asked for it from him becuase the Dark made there lives shorter...(see the Tale of Adenel if Unsure).



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Olorin/Gandalf
Chief Maiar
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Date: Jan 12, 2007
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Thanks for posting this, i recently found that quote aswell and was puzzled; but it seems strange indeed, as it was mentioned somewhere, that not even the Valar could postpone death of men forever. But then again, there is a theory: if Melkor stepped beyond the limits of Eru (which he did), then maybe, just maybe that "cancelled" that bound on him?


But, i dont quite believe in it..



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The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jan 12, 2007
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I think you misundersood it, and as a personal request from now on, please give the context in which the quote is given
Many things can easily be seen differently if they are not seen in their original context

Here Hurin was captured by Melkor and was placed high on the peaks of Thangorodrim, either chained or magically immobilized in a seat where, through the power of Morgoth, he could see all the evils that later befell his son Túrin.

There was no need for Melkor to have to delay his death, he was chained for 28 years, and released at the age of 61, so he wasn't that old yet.

The words "nor die" are used here to show Melkor wanted to torture him by showing him the fate of his son, and his daughter, and still keep him alive, so Hurin received food and water to survive. Once his children died Melkor had no more need for him and set him free, hoping also that he would reveal the location of Gondolin, which he in the end more or less did.

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Glorfindel
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The Might you do give us a laugh....


"There he was bound by the power of Morgoth; and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again and set his power upon him, so that he could not move from that place, nor die, until Morgoth should release him."


 


Read the quote again.


It clearly states that Morgoth put his Power on him SO THAT he could not move or die. So it was Morgoth OWN power, that he had himself that stopped Morgoth from dieing.


 


It does NOT mean Hurin was given some grub and water to keep him alive...



And Morgoth needed to keep him from dieing, not becuase of his age, but becuase of the condition he would have to endure and the torment. That alone would be enough to kill most men. And I seriously doubt Hurin Thalion, greatest of Men, would except Orc food and drink. Thus I doubt he needed any at all becuase Morgoth had prevented him from dieing.


 


And the Valar could give immortality if they wished but there never did becuase it was not within there authority to take away death, a gift of Iluvatar.



-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 18:56, 2007-01-12

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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Jan 14, 2007
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Hmm that is interesting Glorfindel...


"The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Ilúvatar...." - The Silmarillion


This seems to indicate that the Valar MAY not withdraw death from Men, not COULD not. I see no reason why Melkor could not have prevented Hurin's death if he so wished.



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Olorin/Gandalf
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Hmm, so part of that theory might be right? I mean as in that the limit or bound of Eru was that they may not, but he stepped beyond it? Just asking

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Turgolfin
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Date: Jan 15, 2007
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It appears correct that Morgoth had this power, but it does bring up the question why didn't he use it more often?  Or did he and it was just not written about. 



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Glorfindel
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You would think that some of his chief Mortal servants he would give this power. Perhaps his Orc captains and Easterling Men...

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Bilbo Baggins
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Also talking about Melkor-power and all that it makes me wonder - Why didn't Melkor simply turn a cloud and escape Utumno that way? He still had that power then so why not use it?

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The Might
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At the time I think he still had the power to change shape, but remember Tulkas was faster I think



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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes Tulkas was the Fastest of all things that go on legs as Tolkien put it but if Melkor was a cloud or something as Bilbo Baggins suggested I can't see how Tulkas could prevail. Melkor could change into a mouse and scurry away into a hole or something. Interesting thought Bilbo...

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Iarwain Ben adar
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Thats quite a good point you know. I think he could've done that as well but Tulkas was fast so maybe he didn't have the time. But it was said that Melkor alone of the Valar knew fear so maybe in his fear he panicked and didn't think of that. Who knows...

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Bilbo Baggins
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Perhaps it took time for Melkor to rise mountains and turn into shapes. Then again Sauron shape shifted very quickly in the mouth of Huan...

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